Nigel Genders CBE is the chief education officer for the Church of England, a role he has held for nine years, having previously served as head of school policy and director of education for the Canterbury diocese from 2008 until 2012.

Before being focused on education within Church of England schools, he worked as a vicar in several parishes, including in East Kent where he came to spend time as a chaplain for two large state secondary schools.

He talks to Tes about how this work set him on a path to education within the Church of England, his hopes for the future of education, his favourite school memories and how the Church could help inspire more people to become teachers.

1. Who was your most memorable teacher and why?

The most memorable teacher was a music teacher I had - Barry Jones. The way he invested in me as a person and brought out the best in me was something I really needed at the time.

He absolutely understood there was something in me trying to get out and he invested in that and believed in me, and was willing to stick up for me when perhaps other teachers were not. I was a bit disruptive probably as a child but he was on my side.

2. What were the best and worst things about school?

Music gave me an outlet to perform - it was a school that invested in music and did tours, residentials and performances, and they were the bits that had the most impact.

I think the worst was that most of my teachers wanted to compare me with my brothers - I’m the youngest of three and there was a lot of, “Oh, you’re not like your brother.”

I found that quite restrictive and confining, and I think that’s why I was disruptive - I was trying to work out who I was as a person.  

3. Why do you work in education?

I didn’t go into education as a career choice - I’ve been drawn into it through a variety of circumstances.

I was ordained in 1992 and thought I would be in a regular parish for the rest of my ministry - but I soon began to see the connection between church and school when I became the vicar of Eastry in Kent in 1998, and could really see that connection with the local school.

I became the chair of governors, too, and from there I went on to create a post that was to essentially be a chaplain for the two secondary schools - which were not Church of England schools - and I would do that for part of my week.

That was the tipping point, really, where I thought, I can see the massive impact teachers are having and that school has, and if we want to engage with young people then the best engagement is through schools.

Because I was doing what was seemed to be quite an innovative role of merging the church and school chaplaincy, I was invited to be on the board of education in the Canterbury diocese.

After a few years of doing that role, the director of education post in the diocese became free and the bishop at the time said, “This is obviously a passion for you - would you consider applying?” So I did, and from there the national job came up a few years later, and now I do that.

4. What are you proudest of in your career?

I was awarded a CBE in the honours list, and it was great and a real surprise to me. But it’s not really about me - it’s about the work we’ve done in the Church of England Education Office over these past nine years.

We’ve changed what we’re doing quite radically, so although I’m very proud to get that award, I absolutely know it’s a recognition of what we’ve achieved as a team.

5. What about regrets?

One of things we did was to discuss how we can most effectively improve the teaching in our schools and we took the view, based on research, that leadership was the best place to focus.

This led us to run a programme for aspiring headteachers, called the Church of England Foundation for Educational Leadership, and we had about 50 or 60 participants. We’ve since become one of the national providers for the NPQ (National Professional Qualification) within the Department for Education framework and this year ran an NPQ for 4,000 participants.

This all sounds positive, I know, but my regret is that we haven’t invested anywhere near enough from the Church in promoting the vocation to teach in the first place.

Given the impact that teachers have, we really should be investing in that and making teaching the best profession that anyone could go into, and shouting about that and making sure our churches are saying that. But we haven’t really focused that. That’s something we need to change.

6. Who would be your colleagues in your perfect school?

I think the answer is not necessarily the individual but the kind of person in our schools.

We’re really committed to the question of diversity in the school system - I think it’s an absolute scandal in terms of the lack of under-represented groups in the school system in leadership.

We started a programme last year called Leaders Like Us, which is trying to recruit and mentor more diverse leaders, with the aim of getting one in 10 church schools led by someone from a global majority heritage.

The other thing - and I would say this, given my background - is I think the role of a chaplain in a school is massively important.

My experience working in these two schools and being able to be in the staffroom, and talk to and support teachers as well as students, was invaluable.

7. What is the best aspect of our school system?

One of the best things is the way student voice and student leadership have been empowered.

I went to a trust recently where the student leadership came and spoke to us about the issues they’re dealing with and they were so impressive. It was so powerful and I think, in every school across the country, you’d find students involved in taking leadership decisions in school.

One of the things we’re doing at the moment is a programme called the Archbishop’s Young Leaders Award, and it’s about how we develop young people as leaders.

It’s such a joy to see young people stepping up and taking leadership roles, and taking responsibility and being clear about what they think is important for the school to be aligned to.

8. And what about the worst?

I don’t mean this to be bandwagon thing but I think the high-stakes accountability in the system is one of our poorest aspects.

This isn’t a dig at Ofsted but it’s the way the whole system seems to be set up to make great demands of teachers and leaders, with a pretty high-stakes accountability system if it goes wrong.

I’m absolutely in favour accountability; it has done masses to the school system in terms of its improvement. But I think we need a much more compassionate accountability system that is seeking to bring the best out of people.

In fact, we actually took the decision last year to move away from single-word judgements for our own inspections [Statutory Inspection of Anglican and Methodist Schools], to move to more nuanced judgements because you can’t capture the whole life of a school in one word.

9. If you were education secretary, what would you do?

I actually spend a lot of time talking to political advisers and civil servants, and I have regular meetings with the secretary of state and they [the advisers] ask, “If you were secretary of state, what would you do?”

And it’s very easy for us on the outside to say, “Oh, I would do this” - but it’s a pretty hard job. The thing that always strikes me is what we need is long-term solutions and what we have in politics is people who are very short-term. I’ve known about 10 education secretaries since taking on my role.

But back to the question, to me the secretary of state should be doing everything they can to make teaching attractive - not just in the classroom but how am I flourishing as an adult? Is it valued? How am I perceived in the media and in society?

So what they can do is all the classic things around workload, resourcing, pay and conditions, how teachers are developed - they are the things that will make a real long-term difference.

10. What will our schools be like in 30 years time?

I know everyone is talking about artificial intelligence and I think it will have a massive impact. I was preaching recently and I was talking about how most schools are worried about whether or not children should be allowed a smartphone. But actually, what we should be thinking is, is the smartphone going to replace school eventually because what do you need school for if you can ask ChatGPT?

I think understanding that means schools understanding that they have to be much more focused on how children are taught - to collaborate, be innovative and be creative - and much less about, how do we fill their heads with knowledge?

Of course, knowledge is important - our church vision talks about knowledge, wisdom and skills - but in 30 years time, I won’t need to rely on my ability to recall facts so what I need the school system to do is to help me to understand how to think critically, how to collaborate, how to be creative, and bring out that side of people.

I think that’s where the future lies.

Nigel Genders was talking to Dan Worth